Ethics of Self-Help Books: Are They Doing More Harm Than Good?

Most self-help books promise quick fixes, but do they really fix anything? Self-help books may lack validity, but that doesn't mean they can't serve as entry points for growth. In this eye-opening episode, renowned psychologist Dr. Daniel Watter and I dissect the complex world of self-help literature, exposing what's real, what's risky, and what we might be missing.

As we discuss self-help books, we break down the ethical dilemmas faced by authors, especially when framing issues like mental health disorders without clinical assessment. We explore the cultural biases embedded in many popular self-help titles and how one-size-fits-all may not be all that helpful. 

This episode isn't just a critique—it's a call to approach self-help with discernment and curiosity. Perfect for clinicians, mental health enthusiasts, and anyone seeking meaningful growth. Whether you're considering reading a new book or wondering about the future of self-help, you'll walk away with a sharper perspective on authentic healing, the importance of ethical practice, and how to make self-help work for you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

The most common question I get after a therapy session and podcast episode is, what books do you recommend? Which I totally get. I just bombarded you with a bunch of information between 30 to 60 minutes. And if you're like me and can't remember everything, and it's just like an information overload, you may want a resource to review, or you maybe just you don't trust me after all the hubbub, and you just want a second source. Or maybe it's a form of integration. Makes sense. I'm the same way. Studies show that bibliotherapy, which is a fancy term for therapists recommending books between sessions, works. One meta analysis from 2010 compared face-to-face therapy with self-help books, examined 24 studies with 810 participants. The results? Self-help books were slightly more effective than face-to-face therapy. Now, before you write off therapy and cancel your next appointment with your therapist, please keep in mind that they also found that all the books that were used in these studies were cognitive behavioral and not the average self-help book that you see in the self-improvement section in Barnes Noble. These studies also included minimal therapist support, meaning speaking with a therapist individually or briefly in a group therapy while reading the book. They also found that those in self-help book samples were more likely to drop out, although the differences was not significant. Still, this suggests that reading self-help books does help and is among the most common interventions in psychotherapy. One survey found that 85% of therapists recommend bibliotherapy or include it in their practice. My hot take and personal policy is that I don't recommend any books I haven't personally read or vetted. I don't trust self-help books. I observe that many of the commonly read, most popular books, self-help books that you see in the Barnes and Ole section, are written by mental health professionals who are held up at the same high ethical standard in publication treatment. And I'm not wrong. One study in 2008 had a sample of 3,500 mental health professionals vet, 700 self-help books that were published between the years 2000 and 2005 that were aimed at treating depression, anxiety, and trauma. In that study, they found that 82% of the authors were in fact practicing mental health providers. However, 18% of these books provided no citations for their claims, as you have already noticed. I average about 12 citations per 30-minute episode on my podcast, which makes me feel like having no citations is problematic. 16% of these self-help books refer to energy therapy, which has no scientific basis. I don't even know what energy therapy is. 18% were judged by mental health providers for being etrogenic, which means that it refers to another medical issue without having any medical knowledge, and giving supplement and medication advice without a medical degree. That's dangerous. Some even gave Christian evangelical scripture recommendations. Problematic. Mind you, these are books primarily written by psychotherapists for specific issues. This does not account for the current books are generally based on and written by non-mental health providers or the current books out right now. While preparing for this episode, most of the studies I've come across are from the early 2000s. It's almost like after 2010, we just gave up on studying self-help books. Which to me is a red flag. Which makes me think who holds them accountable? Who checks where what they write is evidence-based, ethical, and effective? Today's episode on whether self-help books are ethical came from a recent observation. In December 2025, a bunch of therapists gave scathing reviews and criticism to the highly acclaimed book, Let Them, by Mel Robbins. I'm not going to go into detail about my thoughts on the book. I don't feel the need to. Instead, I will summarize the reactions I observed from my colleagues. This is observational data, so it is biased and completely influenced by my algorithm, which composes of mostly therapists. But what I observed is that the reactions of my colleagues oppose the book in their lens of practice. So for example, if you're a family therapist, they criticize it in the family therapy lens. If they were a trauma therapist, they criticized it in a trauma-informed lens. The resounding message was we stay in our lane, so stay in yours. And this makes sense. We therapists have to follow APA, ACA, NASW, or AMFT codes of ethics. What is the code of ethics? These are standards of practice that every mental health provider must follow to maintain good standing with their licensing board and to preserve trust in our profession. I, for example, am an LMAT in Florida. So I follow the ACA Code of Ethics. One of the biggest standards is section C, two, number two, called Professional Competence. This section explains that I must practice therapy within the scope of my education, training, and supervision. So yeah, I'm a sex therapist. I can talk about sex, I can talk about intimacy because I completed extra training and certification to discuss these topics ethically. But you will not hear me talk about medicine, medication, or give any kind of legal advice because that's way beyond my scope. So you're already starting to see my issue with self-help books here and why I might be inclined to agree with my colleagues. If you don't know, Mel Robbins is not a psychotherapist or a psychologist. She has zero formal training in psychology or mental health. I don't know how accurate celebrity net worth sites are, but according to booksx.com and capitalbeacons.com, it sounds sketchy websites, but I think every celebrity net worth site is. But they estimate her net worth to be between 15 and 20 million. Again, I don't want to focus this at this episode on her book or her career. Rather, I want to focus on self-help books in general, which is quite fascinating. The market for self-help books is estimated to be between 14.2 billion in 2025, according to Alibaba. And seeing that self-help books are very profitable and are projected to be part of a $72 billion industry in 2030. It makes you wonder whether they're really in our best interest or if the industry is prioritizing profit over giving appropriate care to our mental health. Today's episode, I'm introducing Dr. Daniel Water, who received his doctoral degree from New York University in 1995 and has also earned a postgraduate certificate in medical humanities with a concentration in medical ethics from Drew University in Madison, New Jersey. He is licensed as both a psychologist and a marital and family therapist. Dr. Water is an ASEC certified sex therapy supervisor and has been elected to fellowship status in the International Society for the Study of Women's Sexual Health, ISWSH, and the Sexual Medicine Society of North America. He's a frequent lecturer at professional meetings throughout North America. Dr. Water is an author of more than 30 peer-reviewed articles and book chapters on topics such as sexual functioning and dysfunction and ethics in healthcare practice. He is the author of the recent release books, The Existential Importance of the Penis: A Guide to Understanding Male Sexuality. I'm like, here's the book. I got it. I bought it. I read it. And I also took the class on it. So you can see why I'm excited to invite him to today's episode where we're going to discuss whether there are appropriate safeguards in place for a rapid-going industry and how we can create a reliable library of bibliotherapy as therapists and readers. Welcome to Things I'm Meant to Say Naked, a podcast about mental health, desire, intimacy, and the truths that we carry in our bodies. I'm Figs, a certified sex therapist, a licensed mental health counselor, a lover, and someone who has spent way too much time overthinking and turned that into her career. This show is part education, part commentary, and part love letter to the versions of us that don't know what the hell we're doing, but want to feel really good doing it. Some episodes will be just me offering insights, stories, and spicy takes on the erotic. Others will feature guests, lovers, and maybe a little bit of chaos. So get comfy and let's get into things that we were meant to say naked. Although this podcast explores themes of mental health, relationships, and sexuality, it's for educational and entertainment purposes only and is not a substitute for professional mental health care. If you find yourself struggling, please reach out to a licensed provider in your area. Thank you, Dr. Water, for joining me in today's episode. I really, really appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

It's my pleasure.

SPEAKER_02 10:01

So let me address my first concern while preparing for today's topic. Most of the articles that I've read and research in the field of self-help books are in the early 2000s. And it was actually really difficult for me to find anything that was recent. And it may be because right now a research interest is going into AI's impact on mental health in terms of outside the traditional mental health treatment. So we don't really have any recent findings to go by. And given that most of the research on self-help books is outdated, how ethical is it for this rapidly growing industry to continue positioning itself as psychologically beneficial without a strong current empirical support?

SPEAKER_00 10:44

It's an interesting question. And I'm not really that familiar with any studies that have really looked at the impact of self-help books. And I think it would be hard research to do because, you know, self-help books are written for a broad group of people. And, you know, therapy is usually about one person or one couple or one family, for example. And the way I was always trained was that every person, it's an individual therapy for that person. Everybody gets their own therapy that's tailored specifically to them and what their concerns are. And so, you know, self-help books, they can be very useful, they can be very helpful. They may help people in some general way. But to me, they're more of a an introduction to get people started in the therapy process. You know, to think that they are in and of themselves a type of therapy, uh, to me is is is is problematic, you know. And so when I think about the ethics of self-help books, um, the fact that we don't have a lot of outcome data um doesn't really bother me as much as you might think, because the outcome data on psychotherapy is is very difficult, you know, to uh to assess, you know, and and you know, we don't really have data that says what type of therapy works best for what type of person. We don't really have data that suggests, you know, that therapy gains are maintained three months, six months, a year, five years later. You know, there's a lot that we don't know. And there's also a lot that, you know, frankly, I think we can't measure. You know, I I don't know that therapy outcomes are are so easily measurable um no matter no matter what kind of research we do. You know, I'm sort of a proponent, you know, of the idea, you know, that which is relevant is not measurable, and that which is measurable is not relevant. So uh from the so from the ethics part of it, um, you know, I'm I'm more concerned about why people write self-help books. Um, you know, to me, if their desire is to is to do good, you know, to to be helpful to people, to encourage them to pursue uh deeper introspection and reflection, I'm good with that. If their goal is to just make money, you know, to try and put something out there that um um that you know really is of questionable value, that really even anecdotal uh evidence behind it that this is useful or this is helpful, and it's really just kind of a money grab, that's where I really have more problems with uh with with the with the ethics of self-help book.

SPEAKER_02 13:50

See, that's where it's a little bit complicated because us as therapists, we do get paid, we do make money off of quite frankly, helping others. And I think all of us in in some regard, motivation to write a self-help book is to monetize off of it. And so at what point does monetization or, you know, just enjoying the fruits of your labor become inethical versus ethical? And it's also interesting to hear you say that it not being measurable in terms of whether a certain treatment is effective or not, because I think in the field of psychotherapy, we talk so much about evidence-based treatment. And we're we love throwing that word around. And usually that suggests that has been researched, it has been studied. And now you're making me think, or kind of questioning, like, well, what really makes it evidence-based? You know, are we in the same field or playing ground as self-help books that has little to no guidance?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

I think a lot of a lot of therapists would certainly disagree with me and disagree with me strongly.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 15:09

But uh I am I I don't put much stock in the term evidence-based. I don't really know what that means. I don't really know um how that comes to be assessed. Uh, and I think the point that that that is often missed, you know, is that you know, psychotherapy is uh is as much, if not more so, an art, you know, than it is science. You know, we are helping people with problems of living. And those are not always so easy to concretize, um, and certainly change is not easy to measure, except in some very basic, very obvious ways. I think we forget sometimes that non-validated is not the same as invalidated. Just because there's no quote-unquote research to support it doesn't mean that we don't know that the process is helpful, um, because we certainly do.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

I am I'm so conflicted about this because I often feel like I have to prove myself or kind of prove to others that the field of psychology is a science. And, you know, we always talk about validity and reliability and uh being measurable. And for a long time, therapy and psychology has been considered like a pseudoscience kind of woo-woo. And hearing you speak, you're like, well, you know what? We might have to put some weight on the woo-woo, maybe. Well, maybe non-traditional therapy might be effective.

SPEAKER_00 16:47

Well, you know what? It I don't think it's woo-woo to those people who come into therapy because they are truly suffering and looking to uh to find some some relief or some meaning in in their lives or live their lives better. The data that I have seen, even though it doesn't, you know, say necessarily a lot about the specifics, but shows that overwhelmingly people who come into psychotherapy benefit from psychotherapy. They they believe they have benefited from psychotherapy. Whether or not what they came in for has actually changed, because sometimes it doesn't, you know, sometimes what we're working on is helping people deal with what is not changeable. And sometimes we're dealing with helping people accept the uncertainties of life, the vagaries of life, the the maladies of life, you know, everything can't be fixed, but we can learn to deal with things in a better way so that we can continue to have good, meaningful, fulfilling lives.

SPEAKER_02 17:56

Yeah. And how many times have we seen clients where they come in for one issue and we treat a whole different one? Or what they find or deem important, maybe we are feel like we should focus our attention on another thing. And it's it's truly, to me, it's almost like a dance. Like I love how each person I work with in the counseling room, it's a different dynamic, it's a different sense of humor, it's a different vocabulary, it's a different tone. And I think that's just where you're pretty much saying it's an art, it's an art of conversation that yes, it requires in my case, two master's degrees to be determined in this art. But um I think that's really hard for a lot of people to understand. And I am I will be really curious to hear what listeners will think after hearing you say that. Well, we might not be able to fix everything.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

No. Uh well, I I would take it even a step further. We are not able to fix everything. You know, there are many things that cannot be fixed. They can be accommodated for, they can be dealt with, they can be um, you know, they can be worked with, they can be accepted, right? But they're, you know, for example, if we're dealing with someone about the ending of a relationship or the death of someone, or their own diagnosis of a terminal illness. We can't fix that.

unknown 19:31

No.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

But we can we can help people through it. We can we can walk through it with them and provide a great deal of comfort and and healing of distress.

SPEAKER_02 19:45

I think that's very beautiful. I like to think of myself and as kind of like a passenger in terms of being there for my clients and watching them experience life and hardships, successes, and new chapters in their life, and I just get to be part of it and see them overcome it. I think one of the things I say as a therapist all the time, I think I have the best job in the world because I'm collecting wisdom or many lifetimes. I'm living it vicariously through others.

SPEAKER_00 20:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 20:17

And it's it's such a joy. I agree wholeheartedly.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

It it is. It's a it's it's a wonderful profession. It's a a true privilege to be let into people's lives in the way that we are. You know, people they tell us things, they confide things in us that they never tell anyone else, which is why the therapeutic relationship is really the biggest tool in the toolbox of a uh an effective psychotherapist. The ability to create a good um supportive uh therapeutic relationship is is is the art, you know? That's that's the real art.

SPEAKER_02 21:02

Yeah. And that's just something that self-help books just can't accomplish. Like there might be some amazing information on there, maybe a great story that can resonate for many. But can a book cater? Can it be specific to an individual? Can it listen and can it respond and can it follow up?

SPEAKER_00 21:27

No, no, of course. You know, of course not. And and so, you know, self-help books, even under the best of circumstances, they have their limitations, you know. But the idea that a self-help book can in and of itself be therapy, to me is is kind of similar to the whole idea of, you know, evidence-based therapy, that therapy can be, you know, so easily measured. To me, both ideas are reductionistic. They assume that people are much less competent. Complicated than they are. They assume that people are one-dimensional. And they're much more than that.

SPEAKER_02 22:08

I wholeheartedly agree. And I just, that's also like the fun part of like therapy is that throughout a therapeutic process, when I feel like I have unpeeled the layers of layers of an onion, like there is a whole new onion that's appearing. And then, or oftentimes, I don't know if this happens to you. I terminate therapy, or I like to say we graduate and it's amazing. And I'm like, woo, amazing. And years later, months later, they come back and they're like, well, so I went on a hike and I thought really hard about what you said this one time that I completely forgot about and had to go and review my notes about. And they're like, and then it brought back a lot of feelings and a lot of things I want to talk about. And it's always a joy to invite them back.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

Absolutely. You know, the idea that, you know, therapy has a concrete endpoint. To me, I always say to people that I work with when they express that they feel like, you know, it's time for a break or they're, you know, they're good or they got what they wanted, I always say, well, you know, the door is always open. You know, if for any uh any reason you need to pick up the phone and call again, I'm always happy to hear from you.

SPEAKER_02 23:26

You're much nicer than I am. Also when my clients uh when we're done with therapy, maybe because I'm a much more I'm a very Colombian therapist and we have uh sometimes this sense of humor that you'll hear it. So when my clients are done with therapy, a lot of times I say, I hope I never see you again. And they start cracking up. And I'm like, but if I do. I am more than happy to welcome you back and I'm excited to work with you again. And so they always leave laughing and being like, Yeah, I hope I never see you again. I'm like, Yeah, see me.

SPEAKER_00 24:13

And of course, you know, I mean, look, you know, it's it's funny, but it's a it's a good sentiment, right? It's it's you know, I I hope you don't suffer anymore, right? You know, exactly. I hope you don't find yourself in a position where you're in, you know, great pain again.

SPEAKER_02 24:27

So you know they don't seek me out because good things are happening, you know? Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

That is that is true. And I've had many, many people call me a year later, five years later, ten years later. I got a call from someone um a few weeks ago who I had seen almost 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_02 24:50

Wow. How is that like?

SPEAKER_00 24:53

Yeah. And they said, you know, you you helped me so much then, but I have a different situation that I I need to talk about. And so I thought of you.

SPEAKER_02 25:03

Oh wow, that's I mean, what a blessing that is, right? To be the first person that person thinks of when they're going through some hardship.

SPEAKER_00 25:15

Yes, you know, I I think you know that that we forget sometimes, even those of us who are therapists, you know, we forget sometimes that uh we play a very important part in people's lives. And we have a very important role in in their lives. And, you know, if we do our job right, people become very attached to us and us to them. You know, I mean, you know, obviously, you know, we we do that in a professional way, but I most of the therapists that I know of, and certainly for myself, uh, I, you know, am very concerned about the well-being of the people that I work with. You know, I I I genuinely care about them.

SPEAKER_02 26:06

I do check in. There's no way I can leave this unscathed.

SPEAKER_00 26:11

Yeah, no one leaves this world unscathed. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 26:15

There is no way I can have any therapeutic relationship without having part of them in my life as well.

SPEAKER_00 26:22

Because the therapeutic relationship is about connection. It is a very intimate relationship. And, you know, being able to establish that with somebody is it's it's a wonderful thing. It's something that a self-help book uh can never do. It's something that empirically validated therap uh therapies never have assessed. You know, you know. You know, the the truth is most i if i if you take uh you know the the idea that you know therapy should be validated, it should be research-based, you know, that's fine. Uh because I know that that does help, you know, some people uh with some situations. But you also have to recognize that you know you are seeing yourself as a technician, really, uh, than you are as a healer. And I, you know, I I don't lean in that direction.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

I can guess that many therapists don't lean in that direction either. And thank you so much for coming back to the topic, because I would love to get into my next question if that's okay with you.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

Sure.

unknown 27:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:42

So what I also found interesting was how this one researcher divided self-help books into two axioms of categories: growth-oriented and problem-solving-oriented books, and eclectic versus theory-guided. Most self-help books written by psychology professionals are written as problem-solving and theory-oriented, meaning on their title and written book, they'll address a specific psychological disorder and use evidence-based practice to describe and help this particular issue. This sounds like within the scope of competency. This, however, still makes me feel uneasy because this gives me the impression and huge assumption that readers are given proper diagnosis and/or if it's appropriate for readers to self-diagnose, what ethical issues can this possess? If a clinicians are writing self-help books that frame up problems in terms of specific disorders and evidence-based treatments, are we unintentionally encouraging self-diagnosis without proper assessment? Are they extending clinical authority into a space without assessment, consent, and oversight? What are the clinical and ethical implications of this?

SPEAKER_00 28:58

So I think that's a really important question. And there are multiple clinical and ethical implications of that. One is, you know, as psychology and psychotherapy become more and more incorporated into the fabric of everyday life, we see, you know, our language that at one point was very specific become used by the lay public in ways that are incorrect and um and uh and inaccurate. You know, today everybody's a narcissist, everybody's got trauma, everybody is toxic, everybody has ADHD, everybody is bipolar. You know, as as these terms get out there, people use them more and more casually. And so that is a problem. Um I'm not sure that it's a problem that that we can do much about as therapists, except to be, you know, careful in the language that we use. But, you know, people do sort of take the language in in all healthcare disciplines and apply them in ways that they they believe are correct, but often are not correct. So there's a there's certainly a clinical implication there. But on probably a more important level is you know, there's an issue about just how ethical is the diagnostic process to begin with. You know what I mean by uh what I mean by that is you know the DSM, which is our, you know, so diagnostic guide and diagnostic uh Bible, um you know, is a really interesting um and thoughtful uh book. I know a lot of people who over the years have worked on different uh editions of the DSM. I know how much time and how much energy and how much thought goes into it. But the DSM itself has some inherent problems. You know, one is that psychiatric diagnosis is based almost exclusively on patient self-apport. We have we talk about diagnosis in psychiatry and psychology as if we have something that's truly scientific. But if you know the symptoms of some particular DSN disorder, you can walk into any therapist's office and say, This is what I'm experiencing, and receive a diagnosis. You can't do that with strep through.

SPEAKER_02 31:55

Right. There we don't have some kind of blood test to determine someone has generalized anxiety disorder or bipolar disorder. Someone can just come in and be like, I've been overthinking. And because of this, I can't sleep.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

Right. And then we try and diagnose them with something. The problem with that is not only are the diagnoses uh not backed by any objective uh data. You know, you want to talk about evidence-based therapies. You know, here we have diagnoses that have no evidence behind them. You know, I don't know. I don't know how you meet I don't know how you measure the therapy uh when you don't have any uh uh more objective markers for diagnosis. But but that aside, you know, let's say you know somebody comes in and we uh assign a diagnosis to them, then what does that direct the treatment? If it does, then we've really sort of medicalized these problems of living to the point where we are now treating a label. We're treating a diagnosis. For example, if this is your diagnosis, this is how you should be treated. That's probably a good idea with something like strep throat. But, you know, so you're a therapist, granted, you're you know, much younger, you know, than I am, so you haven't been working as many years, but I'm sure you've treated a lot of people who were diagnosed with uh major depressive disorder. Yeah. How how similar do they look? Not a single one. Their presentations are so different, right? So different. And so the idea that someone who's diagnosed with major depressive disorder would be treated with this type of therapy completely dehumanizes the individual sitting in front of us. You know, the person sitting in front of us, they may be complaining of symptoms that we would diagnose as major depressive disorder, but their depression is not like next person's depression or the next person's depression. We need to target and tailor the therapy that we provide for that person to the needs and the personality of that person. So I have some serious questions about whether or not the diagnostic process that we use is ethical.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

Well, how do we come up and how does the folks, and let me also, for the listeners who don't know what DSM is, stands for diagnostical statistical manual. It's what we clinicians use to diagnose. How do we come up with diagnosis? How do we determine what are the symptoms? How do we determine that it's a yes or no? This is what journalized anxiety disorder is. How did those in the committee come up with that standard in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 34:59

Well, and and I think that's a really good question, too, that a lot of people don't really know the answer to. The answer is that, you know, and again, uh I I don't want to take anything away from the hard work and the dedication and the desire to produce something that is truly worth while from the people who work on the various DSM uh groups, you know, and and and subcommittees. But the bottom line is what's in and what's out is going to be largely determined by the assessment and the sentiments of whoever is working on the DSM for that edition.

SPEAKER_02 35:38

That worries me.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Well, look at the case, you know, in terms of the sex therapy world. One of the most obvious is is homosexuality.

unknown 35:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

Homosexuality was classified in the DSM as a disease. It was a a psychiatric illness. Until I think DSN III. I I I'm I may be wrong about that, but I think it's till DSN III. So the reason it was taken out of DSN III was not because we had discovered any new scientific data. It's because the sentiments of the culture had changed. People didn't think that people attracted and haven't being sexually involved with members of the same gender were psychiatrically ill. We changed our mind about it. We reassessed, we changed our mind about it. Now you can argue that it never should have been in there in the first place. And I certainly wouldn't argue that point. But it's important to recognize was it was removed because the vote of the people who were working on that section of the DSN for DSN III didn't think it belonged there.

SPEAKER_02 36:57

And when we look at the DSM, a lot of the key phrases that they use is outside the norm. And for a long time, those who are considered queer were considered outside the norm because quite frankly, we just didn't understand it. And then we have to thank those who really, really stood up and vouch for the community to take it off the DSM. And this also, that keeping that in mind, what's still in the DSM, if I'm not mistaken, it's in the DSM V is sadomasochism, a paraphilia, as a paraphilia. And that is so concerning because of how much or how often we work with kinky folks, and how often that they have these thoughts, these feelings, these fantasies of wanting to experience kink, to experience stimulus, to experience restraint, and concern that their therapist is going to diagnose them as being ill because it's on the DSM.

SPEAKER_00 38:05

Well, you're right. And the sexual disorders section is really the only section that I'm aware of that diagnoses based on behavior. In other words, let's say you um let's say you uh have obsessive compulsive disorder and um you what one of the sim one of the common presentations of that is excessive hand washing. You know, I'm I've worked with people who they wash their hands so much that their skin is so dry and brittle and it's cracking and bleeding. I mean, yeah, you know, it's it's really, you know, so so so so painful, right? We don't diagnose them with a hand washing disorder, right? Even though the symptom is how they wash their hands. So if someone is interested in BDSM, why would we diagnose them based on what they do? I mean, washing your hands is a good idea, excessive washing your hands can be problematic. BDSM is a is you know perfectly fine. The people who are engaged in in this and and most other paraphylias are psychologically as healthy as anybody. But I suppose, you know, there could be people who take it, you know, too far, let's just say, you know, it's uh but it's but what drives that, right? Is it an obsessive compulsive factor that drives that? Um, you know, it's usually diagnosis is based on what's driving something as opposed to the behavior in and of itself. The way the DSM has been written in the with the with the paraphilia section is basically anybody who participates in this kind of sexual behavior gets a psychiatric diagnosis. That would be like diagnosing anybody who washes their hands with a psychiatric diagnosis.

SPEAKER_02 40:11

It's like if I if someone were to tell me something kinky, and for me, if it made me uncomfortable, I'm like, yeah, that's not normal. There has to be a reason behind it. But it's again going back into the behavior and let's say into um I think when you're talking about like internal mechan mechanisms, I think of hypersexuality. Or before I became a sex therapist, I hear all the time the words are now hypersexuality or compulsive sexual behavior. And I'm with I agree with like it's not a real diagnosis, but rather it's a symptom that can be an expression of so many other things. It can be an expression of OCD, it can be an expression of trauma. Or quite frankly, maybe this person's having quantiful, quantiful, I don't think that's a real English word, sexual experiences that are full of consenting adults, and the therapist that happened to listen to this thought that that was hypersexual. Or someone is exploring their sexuality as a young, queer person. It can be all these things, but according to the person that's listening and just paying attention to the behavior, now we have hypersexuality.

SPEAKER_00 41:26

Well, that's you know, that opens up another uh interesting, you know, can of lens because most of the um most of the things in the DSM, uh, in order for it to be diagnosable, it has to create distress. Correct. Right? But oftentimes in sex therapy, it's not really clear whose distress are we treating. So for example, a lot of times, you know, this uh the diagnosis of hypersexuality or sexual addiction or sexual compulsion or whatever you want to call it is being made by the person's partner, uh, not by them, right? They're not distressed. And the same thing with certain paraphylias, right? The person who is participating, um, you know, is is perfectly fine with that, but their partner thinks, oh my gosh, that's disgusting, or that's sick, or that's whatever. You know, and so you must have a problem. And as you said, sometimes it's even the therapist who's saying, Oh, yeah, that doesn't sound right to me. Yeah, that doesn't sound good to me, you know, even though the person sitting in front of you is not distressed. Now it's even a little further complicated though, because a lot of times people who do engage in behavior that is problematic are not distressed enough.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

I've always seen that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

Right? Like a lot of child molesters. You know, they they're not distressed that they are attracted to prepubescent uh children or that they sexually engage with them. Um so does that mean there's no nothing there to treat? Because they're not distressed? You know, the DSM makes everything sound so neat and clean. And human behavior is messy. Therapy is messy, which is one reason why it's so difficult to measure outcomes or anything else about therapy.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

That brings such an interesting point. It's just like whose distress do we prioritize?

SPEAKER_00 43:54

You know, we see in sex therapy all the time, you know, uh partners. Who find out that their partner masturbates? And, you know, a lot of people are perfectly fine with that. But there are also many people who say, no, uh, sex is something that you should only be sharing with me. And I don't understand. If you have a willing partner, why would you want to do it yourself? So what do you do with a couple like that? Is there some diagnosis there? Or is there a difference in values or a difference in opinions that need to be worked out with the couple, right? It's that's not I mean, in my mind anyway, that's that's not necessarily something diagnosable.

SPEAKER_02 44:48

No, it's completely contextual.

SPEAKER_00 44:50

Yes. And and you know, people like, you know, Thomas Zaz, for example, uh, and and and other more humanistic, uh, existentially oriented therapists, they are very much opposed to what is sometimes referred to as the medicalization of human life. And the idea that you can diagnose problems of human living the way you would, you know, strep throat is is to them nonsense. It's mechanistic, it's reductionistic, it's not helpful. It's impersonal. It's impersonal and it's highly judgmental.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

The day prior to recording this, I saw on social media, and it was this comedian who hired an AI therapist. And it was full of oohs and ahs. And in the comment section was therapists being like, oh man, I have to now start changing my responses to when clients speak. A lot of therapists right now are concerned or worried about being replaced by AI. I'm really feeling like I don't think we ever will be because there's nothing like human connection. But also, AI is a machine. Looking at it that way, it's just like it's probably going through a list of symptoms. Yes or no, yes and no. What's the best way to treat this person? It goes by evidence base. I don't think an AI could ever think like me, figs, and be like, you know what, this actually might be a good time to bring up this. Or maybe, you know what, let me lighten the mood or like bring humor into the session. I don't think it can ever replace how all of us are sifferin and interact with our clients differently.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Yes. Well, I agree. And I certainly hope that we are correct. But you know, I remember back in the early days of my practice, uh talking with friends of mine who were urologists. Oh, yeah. And of course, you know, most men, yeah, most men with erectile dysfunction would go to their urologist. That's where they would go first. And then the urologists would refer to sex therapy, you know, perhaps. And we used to say, you know what? If they ever come out with a pill to fix this, we are out of business. And then in the late 90s, Viagra is here. And I will tell you that many urologists and many sex therapists thought, well, it's been a nice ride, but the end is here. And only one thing happened. We all got busier. What happened was the idea that there might be a simple solution made people more willing to get started in the process. So they would go see if there was help. And they might try the Viagra. And for some it was very helpful. But, you know, for the vast majority, it really wasn't. You know, uh people are surprised to find out that as popular as Viagra and you know, Cialis and Labitra, you know, how popular those medications are, less than 50% are ever refilled. Ever. So a lot of people are trying them. But very few, relatively speaking, are satisfied with the outcome. But once they've begun the process, now they're in the sort of healthcare system, they're much more likely to take the next step. And so I think that could happen with AI too. AI may make more people to begin the search for is there a solution to my problem? They'll get a, you know, kind of simple uh suggestion. They'll try it. It won't do what they are hoping it will do.

SPEAKER_02 49:27

Right.

SPEAKER_00 49:29

But they'll take the next step and call a therapist. So it's very possible that AI will do, you know, for psychotherapy generally, what Viagra did for sex therapy is it just made the field explode where people were coming out of the woodwork thinking, okay, you know what? Maybe it would be a good idea for me to see if I could get some help for what bothers me, whereas they may have been reluctant to do so before.

SPEAKER_02 49:59

I love that point of view. Um, one of the things I was thinking about in regards to AI and also self-help books, trying my best to stay on topic because I love the direction we're going, is I worry about how folks will start by reading a book or start with AI and then experience and be discouraged by the experience. Discouraged that wasn't helpful, discouraged and feeling like they're unhelpful, no one will understand. Because books have an ability for universality. If someone wrote about it, then this must help a lot of people. But somehow this is not helping me. That's my biggest concern. But hearing you talk about Scialis, Viagra, and what it did to our field. And now how I mean people talk about rectile dysfunction, at least around me, you know, we're I think the conversations we experience in our personal life cannot be, it's not close to the norm. But at least around me, I hear about a rectile dysfunction at least once a day.

SPEAKER_00 51:06

Yes. That's right. Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. We we get used to hearing conversations that most people blush at. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's a joy. It's fun. You know. Um, but I but I hope but I hope it does take that path though, where, you know, if a self-help book, and uh you're right, you know, it could discourage some people. You know, if if they read the book and they do what the book says and they they didn't get better, they might be discouraged. But I think it's more likely that they would say, I'm gonna try something else. I hope that's the case, you know. And and if that is the case, I think self-help books can can provide, you know, a really uh a really helpful uh entrance to the path. I don't think they provide the solutions to the issue. Um, but there's an entrance.

SPEAKER_02 52:03

You're a you're a very optimistic person, and I'm just going to absorb some of that and try to incorporate. I I I'm a very much a cynic when it comes to I I help so many other people. I do. I love what I do. I love being a helper, but I can be so cynical. So hearing this from you, it's it's very refreshing. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:26

Good.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

And so um we talked about how most books are written by mental health professionals, but we haven't really talked about the axiom, which is eclectic and growth-oriented self-help books that make up most of the self-help books section and the top bestsellers. In other words, these are books that we pull from different schools of thoughts and doesn't treat a specific problem to a much broader audience. If the majority of best-selling help books are eclectic and designed to appeal to a broad audience rather than grounded in a specific evidence-based framework, I mean I'm starting to hate this word. Are we prioritizing marketability over psychological accuracy? And what ethical issues does that raise?

SPEAKER_00 53:10

Well, you know, it's an interesting question because I sort of land on the side of the books that are more targeted and you know, and empirically based, I think are less likely to be helpful than the books that are more generic and philosophy-based.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Okay. That goes completely against what I said in the beginning of the episode. So please tell me more and tell me why.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Prove me wrong. You know, even look, let's say, let's say you want to learn to play an instrument.

SPEAKER_02 53:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:54

And so you take a course that teaches you how to play the instrument. Do you play an instrument? Are you musical?

SPEAKER_02 54:06

I do actually play the guitar.

SPEAKER_00 54:08

Do you?

SPEAKER_02 54:09

I do since I was eight.

SPEAKER_00 54:12

Okay. That's I started playing the guitar when I was eight as well.

SPEAKER_01 54:16

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

So have you had one teacher and just stuck with that teacher's uh uh teachings since you were eight?

SPEAKER_02 54:29

Oh, absolutely not. I I couldn't finish a course for the life of me. I would just study songs and then jump from song to song.

SPEAKER_00 54:41

But why? I mean, if here's somebody who is telling you this is exactly what you need to do to be a good guitar player, why don't you just why why would you look elsewhere?

SPEAKER_02 54:56

Well, that's a good question. I think at the time of my adolescence was I got bored. I got very bored. I hated the repetition, and I just wanted to jump, and I just wanted to play or whatever my mood wanted, but it was really hard for me. I think the longest I was able to stay with any kind of teacher was in high school, and that's about it.

SPEAKER_00 55:26

Okay. So the reason I bring that out is because becoming a good musician, I mean, you know, we're guitar players, but you know, I think it's probably the same for any instrument. You have to find your way. You have to find your style, you have to find your sound. And so most people who are good musicians have gotten input on how to become a better musician from multiple sources, plus their own self-exploration. That's how I look at those targeted self-help books. You are listening to one voice, one idea, one interpretation. And while maybe that's gonna do it for you, I think most people get better at whatever it is they're trying to get better at when they have input and when they're open to input from multiple sources.

SPEAKER_02 56:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 56:38

If you wanna if you want to read a book that's helpful to you, in my opinion, read M. Scott Peck's The Road Less Traveled, read Irving Yalem's Love's Executioner, read books that uh inspire you to look inward and to trust yourself and to find your path and to be courageous and to take risks and to try new things. The book that says first do this, then do that, then try this, take some deep breaths. It may be helpful, but we could be more ambitious than that. Let's say you have a a fear of elevators. Okay. You have a type of claustrophobia.

SPEAKER_02 57:30

Many, many folks have have struggled with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:36

Well, I think it's very possible for a self-help book to get you to the point where you can ride in an elevator.

SPEAKER_02 57:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 57:48

But you will be miserable doing it.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

Oh.

SPEAKER_00 57:53

So it'll help. It can give you some tools or techniques to endure the ride, but it's not going to make you comfortable.

SPEAKER_02 58:04

I think, quite frankly, if we're going to the realm of self-help books and I'm dealing with the discomfort or of claustrophobia and heights, I feel like elevators is like a dual diagnosis in that regard. Um, I will likely drop out of a book. I will probably stop reading once things get really uncomfortable because I Yes. I so I that I think that will be my challenge compared to a therapist or if I've worked with therapists who specialize in OCD. And when they do those exposure treatments and their clients are screaming or kicking and really, really resisting, and they go for it anyways. That I think it's it's so fascinating, those type of therapists, but a book can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 58:53

No, no. And that's why I say, you know, I mean, uh, you know, best case, the book may be helpful, but hopefully what the book does is inspire you to take the next step, which is okay, you know, these ideas are interesting, but I'm not able to do them. Maybe if I saw a therapist, I could take that next leap.

SPEAKER_02 59:16

I'm hearing very pro-self-help book in this conversation, and I don't hate it. It's just go it went against my expectations, which I genuinely love. I love being proven wrong. I love that I think that's the beauty of being a cynic, is like I'm critical of myself as well. So thank you for that.

SPEAKER_00 59:38

Well, and and I hear you. But uh to be clear, all of the things that I have said today about self-help books are, you know, what I believe. And I think I'm giving you the best case scenario. That said, I've never read a self-help book that I thought was worth it, Dan.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

You just recommended books.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

Uh I I thought that the book might help lead you someplace else. I've never read a book, self-help book, that I thought actually was likely to be very effective. The ones that are the ones that I mentioned, yes, I do, I do think, but I don't necessarily consider them self-help books, even though the road less traveled. It's uh characterized as the best-selling self-help book of all time. But it's not a book that says this is what you should do. It's really a book about trying to understand yourself better and to push yourself for growth. It doesn't tell you how to, you know, have better sex.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:58

It tells you how you need to be but more creative or encourages creativity.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:04

More responsible for creating your own life, you know, um, more accountable, uh, more risk-taking, um, more courageous, you know. Yeah, it encourages you to do all of those things. It's not a step-by-step manual.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:23

Do you give bibliotherapy? Do you ever recommend books to your clients in tangent or part of therapy? Do you ever give it as homework?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:35

Rarely.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:36

Rarely.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:37

Yeah. There are some, you know, um, like uh the ones that I mentioned. I I'm a big fan of The Roadless Traveled, I'm a big fan of Love's Executioner, I like Emotional Resilience by David Viscott. Um, you know, I like a lot of books like that. Um, but um, you know, if you're trying to overcome your fear of heights, I don't I don't know of any book that I found that I thought was particularly helpful.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:10

Well, I you definitely made my reading list grow. Um, I will also like to add, I I bought your book. I'm started reading it.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:20

Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:21

What do you think? It's pretty good. It's making me think. And I uh so I was like, well, might as well, since you're here. I'm like, okay, maybe buy more books. It gives me an excuse.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:35

Even my own book. Even my own book, I don't recommend. Uh uh. Although you know, sometimes, sometimes, sometimes I will, you know, people say, is there something I can read? I'll tell them, you know, that you might want to read my book to get an idea of how I think and how I work and what my approach is like. And you may see parts of yourself uh in the book, uh, in the cases that I described that may resonate. And so, you know, we can use that as a lead-in. But I don't say, you know, everybody that I see in therapy that you have to read my book.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:15

It almost feels like your book is like your consultation call.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:19

I get a lot of people who call me because they read my book. You know, they they've heard me speak on a podcast, you know, like this, or uh, you know, or some other presentation. It's a book I'm I'm very proud of. I mean, I I I I I like it. I'm I'm pleased, you know, with with the product. It was the book I wanted to write. It it does really talk about um you know problems, uh, the way I uh conceptualize of them. It's it's it's written primarily for a professional audience, but in a way that is accessible to non-professionals as well. You know, I tried to, you know, keep the jargon to a minimum, use lots of cultural uh examples like you know, scenes from movies and you know, excerpts from novels and and and that sort to illustrate certain points. So yeah, you know, I I hope people read it. I it it has sold rather well. I'm I'm pleased to say that. Congratulations. Thank you. But uh, but yeah, you know, it's it's still, you know, I don't think reading that book is going to solve anybody's problems. But it brings them to me, um, so that I can help take them to the next step. And I think that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:40

Uh I'm gonna go a little off topic because what you said just now was it's very different than I guess like one of my personal takes as a Latina therapist. So a lot of my clients I work with are in my community, and we talk a lot about collectivism and how psychotherapy and I've and this is also my feelings about self-help books, it focuses so much on self-actualization, but I also feel like self-actualization can be a form of hyperindependence, and it can be very individualistic that just doesn't resonate with a lot of folks. And I a lot of my interventions and when I working with my clients, it's more so like how do we work with our community with the resources that we have? You know, we talk so much and going back into pop psychology jargon that now everybody's using about cutting people off and toxic relationships is like, well, for a lot of Latino folks, that's not really an option. It can't be an option because not just because I feel morally obligated, but it's not within my culture, it's not within my values. So that's one of my critiques, my personal critiques about. Self-help books. It's just like, I think it's makes everything so individualized. And maybe that's also like the part in which, you know, looking into like what are exactly the interventions that these books are recommending. And your take on rather about being about exploration, introspection, courage. I think I really like that because it goes back into like actually maybe eclectic self-help books are a lot more helpful because it gives power to the person to adjust the thoughts, the feelings into their culture, their belief systems, and their values.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:42

I think you're right. You know, that's one of the limitations of self-help books, you know, generally, is that they are not very culturally sensitive. You know, they they you know, they they don't take into account a wide variety of cultural, you know, traditions and and values. And you know, I gotta have to tell you, you know, uh uh and not again, not knowing, you know, a lot uh uh about you know the the Latino community. Don't worry, but but I think, you know, the trend in therapy these days that parents are toxic and need to be cut off is a real mistake.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:31

Oh, let's hear this take.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:33

You know, there I mean, uh I'm not saying that there aren't some parents who are truly toxic. You know, there there are, of course there are. You know, there are people who are abusive, there are people who are heavily involved in substance abuse, there are people who, for a variety of issues, probably never should have been parents, and they have not treated their children well. But a lot of times these are parents who have done the best that they could. And really their hearts were in the right places, and they want to be able to have good relationships with their adult children. But these days, the the tendency is to cut people off, not to work it out. It's not my job to help you understand me better. Well, yeah, it kinda is. You know, that kinda is our all of our jobs, you know. And, you know, these days, you know, it fits into the whole, you know, zeitgeist of of society where people are so divided and so separated and so quick to cut people out for, you know, one thing, you know, one thing that they don't like. You know, uh what's coming to my mind today is you know political choices. You know, if you support this person, I can't have anything to do with you. People are more complicated than that. You know, they're not single issue people. And people, because they have a different opinion than yours, doesn't make them toxic. It doesn't make them, you know, people that you need to cut out of your life. And I've seen a lot of families be destroyed for issues that are not what we would have considered abuse issues at one time. And I'm not convinced they're abuse issues today. You know, do you need to sometimes, you know, keep some people at arm's length? Yeah, yeah, you do. You do.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:41

Right. Boundaries.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:42

You know, boundaries are important, but you know, boundaries can also be flexible. You know, they don't, they're not all or nothing. And that seems to be the way a lot of people and a lot of therapists are looking at that issue these days. It's all or nothing. Cut them off, get rid of them, as opposed to maybe we can work it out and maybe we should try that first.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:09

I tend to look at boundaries as bridges. It's a way in which we communicate or the agreements we reach so that we can both cross this river, cross this divide, and where we're both comfortable. I think people, and like this is again where a lot of people are using pop psychology or therapeutic terms without truly understanding them or why they exist.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:34

And I hear often, and this is just like all the time on social media, I'm I'm a zillennial, I'm between Gen Z and millennial, very young millennial. So I hear all the time, protect your peace, protect your peace. And I'm like, yes, I I love my peace. But also when you remove so much noise, it's not peace, it's just quiet.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:59

Well, you're right. And you know what? So it reminds me, so back in the day when I was training, what was really popular back then was assertiveness training.

unknown 1:11:12

Oops.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:13

Interesting. Never heard of these.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:16

Well, we're talking the 70s, you know. But assertiveness training, you know, being able to, you know, stand up for yourself in a forceful but not aggressive way, but in a strong way, to take your position, to hold your position, you know. And on the surface, that sounds like a really good idea.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:36

Right. You're standing up for what you believe in.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:39

Yeah. But what people also had to recognize was that if you follow all of the tenets of assertiveness training, nobody's gonna like you very much.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:56

Really? What are these tenets?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:59

Well, because it's just it's too inflexible, it's too strong, it's too judgmental. And so when you say something like, protect my peace, protect my peace, to me, that's a great way to end up dying alone because people are complicated and relationships are complicated, and sometimes they get messy, and nobody is going to be a hundred percent of what you want them to be, but that's also what makes life so interesting. That's how you learn, that's how you grow. Peace uh gets you no place. I mean, it's nice to have peaceful moments. I'm not saying that it's not, that's great. And certainly you want to be with people who are respectful. But that people kind of shake you up a little bit and get you to think and reconsider. That's the beauty of being human. Protecting my peace to me just sounds like, you know, don't don't ever you know bring anything into my life that's gonna disrupt my serenity.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Well, that sounds about right. That's a lot of what I hear.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:21

Yeah, where where where's that gonna take you? Where where are you gonna go with that?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:26

My my dad, one of the things that he would say to me all the time growing up was if everyone thinks like you, everyone looks like you and is like you, we have a problem. And I was always encouraged to engage, have friends, and be part of different communities. And I think that just shapes who I am. I think it gave me a wide breadth of experiences and meet amazing people who I call my chosen family. And it does require some distress tolerance. It just does require being uncomfy. So going into your point, it's just like, yes, we can have friendships, we can have relationships with disagreements, but it's not just our rigidity we have to look at. We also have to look at that person's rigidity. Because I can imagine it'd be really hard and really difficult to maintain a conversation with someone who's not willing to listen. And then also try to understand your point of view, either.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:27

Absolutely. I I I agree with you, but I think just you know, what I would hope is that people would find differences fascinating as opposed to threaten. Um I'll give you an example. Um I'm not sure if if this is true or not, but this is what I was told. So we can fact check af after. Okay, well, yeah. So or you could tell me because you're Colombian.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:01

Mm-hmm. I am. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:04

So several years ago, um uh I heard about this new restaurant.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:10

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

Uh a c a Colombian restaurant, uh owned by people from Colombia, Colombian food. They said it was very good, very authentic.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:19

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:20

And so um I told, yeah, let's go. Let's check it out. So we went and the people could not have been nicer. I mean, it was the service in the restaurant was really, really good, and the food was terrific.

SPEAKER_02 1:15:40

Love to hear that.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:41

Terrific. But after we're finished, we're sitting there and sitting there and sitting there. And I I think we were sitting there after we finished eating for at least as long as we were sitting there when we were eating.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:03

And I couldn't figure out why they didn't bring the check. And someone told me that culturally, that would be considered rude. You don't bring a check until someone asks for it. Yes. That's true. Yeah. A hundred percent true. Oh, I didn't know that. I didn't know that. None of us knew that. And so we sat there forever.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:28

Yeah. Because all day, all night, if you have to.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:32

Right. Because, you know, they said the value, you know, the the the value of the Colombian culture is, you know, no, sit, talk as long as you want.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:40

Conversation.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:41

You know, conversation. Right, you know, and it would be rude to make people feel like they weren't welcome and they should leave. So you get a check when you ask for a check. Well, I didn't know that. None of us knew that. But I thought that was fascinating. Now I know other people who would say, well, come on, you know, this is America and we do it differently over here. And you want to do business here, you need to know how we do business. It was a cultural learning that I thought was just fascinating.

SPEAKER_02 1:17:14

I it's funny because I now experienced the switch. So I just um had my two-year anniversary of living here in Colombia, and I visited the United States um a couple months back, and I experienced culture shock or reverse culture shock. And it was really funny. I went out to dinner with a couple friends, and I was that friend that had their hand up constantly. Like, can we get water? Can we get check? And I'm like, hey, they didn't bring you your sauce. And they're like, no, where's the sauce? Like screaming it out loud because I just forgot that that is very un-American, that no service staff are supposed to rotatedly like check up on you.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:05

Right, right. They said in the Colombian restaurant, that's just considered rude to interrupt people. You know, when they ask for something, you bring it. If they don't ask, you stay away.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:17

Yeah. Yeah. We have a saying, and it's in Spanish is uh the baby that doesn't cry is the baby that doesn't get fed.

unknown 1:18:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:28

Oh, that's so funny that you experience that in a Colombian restaurant. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:32

Yeah. But to but to me, you know, that goes against the, you know, don't interfere with my peace.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:38

My goodness. I'm about to open a can of worms. So I live abroad and I travel abroad and I just came from Europe. And I, one of the things that we talked about about American ignorance, because unfortunately, a lot of Americans do not have a passport, do not travel abroad, and so do not have many uh cultural experiences. And so when they do travel outside, they expect others to adjust to them. And they they fuss, they get frustrated. And I think that's a little bit, again, of like protecting my peace is just like I expect others to accommodate to me in my comfort level. And I don't take a breath or a moment to understand others or why people do the things that they do, behave the way they do, speak the way they do, eat the way they do. And you really miss out on life, protecting your peace.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:36

Yeah. And look, you know, I I think referring to it as American ignorance is rather generous. I think of it as American arrogance, where Americans think that they shouldn't have to, you know, learn another language, or they, you know, if they travel to another country, they shouldn't have the grace to try and speak the language that uh, you know, the of the people whose country they are visiting. And we're a little spoiled because most countries, you know, people do learn English. But you know, one of the things that I have always, yeah, one of the things I've always thought was a real uh gap in the education of Americans is uh we don't learn another language. Whereas people in most other countries, they do. They learn English, but they I mean, I know so many people who have come over from Europe and South America, they speak five languages.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:33

Yeah. Everybody in my family speaks three. And um when I when I'm struggling with my third and I'm I'm actually learning my fourth, my family's reaction is like, American, just taking your time, you're taking too long. And I'm like, um I feel like I'm pressured to keep up with them. And when I go back to the States, I'm like, yeah, I speak three. Whoa, what do you mean? It's like this whole thing, it's the attitude's completely different.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:09

Well, and so to kind of bring that back to where we started, another thing to remember is, you know, for Americans and American therapists, we talk about ethics as if our ethical positions are universal. And they are not.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:30

It's kind of like one of the things I've been learning on my self-research, self-research, but just reading articles for fun, is just how there are even diagnoses that exist in the east that don't exist in the west, and treatments that exist in the east. And there's so much, there's so a breadth of information, and we completely devalue it because it's not Western. The episode, if you if you ever listen to this podcast, I talk a lot about um horror video games and interest in horror, because I've I was talking about Ghostface Kink. And most of the studies I pull from are from the East and Nordic countries. I would have not come across these studies if I just didn't have a genuine interest. It's a bit of uh academic arrogance, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 1:22:26

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:28

I I appreciate it. You're you're very energetic. I I would not I I think when I when I hear age, I'm like, I don't want to hear you call yourself old unless you're calling yourself wise. Otherwise, I don't think so.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:46

Um I'm okay with old.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:49

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:50

I consider myself lucky. I mean, what's the alternative?

SPEAKER_02 1:22:55

I don't know. What's the alternative?

SPEAKER_00 1:22:57

I guess I would have been dead by now.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:59

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:01

Right?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:02

I thought it was gonna be a lighter place.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:05

Okay. So to me, you know, old, that's kind of what's supposed to happen. And if you're lucky enough, that's what does happen.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:14

So to me, old is fine.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:16

It's a blessing.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:18

It truly is.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:21

Well, thank you so much, Dr. Water. I really enjoy this conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:26

Me too.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:27

Is there any last thoughts or things that you want to share to our listeners about yourself or about what we talked about, or rather future recommendations about the topic of self-help books? I know we went super off tangent, but bring it back.

unknown 1:23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:45

Any last thoughts?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:45

Yeah, I mean Yeah, we did go, you know, uh on a few tangents, but I think it all comes back to the same basic core, you know, which is that, you know, human human existence is is messy, it's nuanced, it's complicated. And anything that promises you the answer that kind of travels a straight line should probably not be trusted.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:14

Thank you so much, Dr. Water.

SPEAKER_00 1:24:16

It's my pleasure. Thank you. Thanks for having me.